The issue of Tribulational contradictions.
The Issue of contradictions with the Bride, the tribulation saints, the wrath of God, the rapture and return and coming of God.
There are verses that appear to contradict each other around who and when the people of God are removed from the earth at the end of the age.
God does not contradict himself so what is being implied here.
It is evident that the wrath of God is a period of time that excludes the people of God.
On one hand we see the people of God being protected from the trouble of what's coming upon the earth.
Yet we are told that we will be taken out of these times of trouble. This implies that we must be in some aspect associated with the tribulation or not at all.
It's the in ability of teachers and pastors of not understanding these aspects that they stay away from teaching them, some entirely, some partially.
There seems to be a contradiction in relation to these saints and the bride.
Are they the same people?
We have a situation where the tribulation is before the rapture and the return of the lord or after. God doesn't contradict himself. Then what do we do with these verses.
It seems he returns for his bride yet comes to judge the world and at that time and the people of God are delivered.
Are the believers removed both in the same way? Are they the same people?
We have to view the word of God within the proper context and the correct meanings of the words.
Not only that but midraschic and typological principles have to be applied this can not be achieved through protestant exegesis. Hebrew exegesis is required to really understand these concepts.
So let as look at these verses that are contradictory.
(Mat 24:21 MKJV) for then shall be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be.
(Mat 24:29 MKJV) And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Joe 2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
So at this point we see that these events described above happen after the Tribulation.
If the tribulation starts with the wrath of God we then have a contradiction.
If the Great Tribulation starts with the wrath of God we still find this contradictory. contradiction.
If the removal of the bride occurs when the lord comes and if the wrath of God begins the great tribulation we have a contradiction with verse Rev 7:14
"And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb."
This then has a contradiction with all the preservation verses.
Question: Is the Wrath of God associated with the great tribulation.
I have copied this below as to me it is biblically sound from
"The Life Four Square church"
The Wrath of God
Revelation 16:1 (NKJV) Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
The is a time coming when God will judge the world for rejecting His Son and for sin. It will be a day of wrath and judgment. In the Bible, this time is descriptively called the Wrath of God (Col. 3:6; Rev. 14:9-10, 19; 15:1, 7; 16:1). In some passages, it is called the Day of the Lord (Joel 1:15; 2:1-11; 1 Thes. 5:1-9). It will be a day of vengeance when God's wrath will be expressed in the form of seven plagues poured out upon the earth. There will be much physical pain and trouble for the inhabitants of earth at that time. Some have taught that the plagues of God's wrath are part of the Great Tribulation. That is not the case according to the Bible (see the chapter explaining the difference between the Great Tribulation and the Wrath of God).
The seven plagues in the Book of Revelation constitute the outpouring of the Wrath of God (Rev. 6:17; 11:18 with the following references). Details of the seven plagues are first provided in Revelation 8:6-13, 9:1-21, and 11:15-19. The seven plagues are described a second time in Revelation 16:1-21. Notice that the plagues are poured out by angels of God (Rev. 8:6,10; 11:15; 16:1). Revelation 16:1 says, "Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, 'Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth.'" These plagues described in the Book of Revelation are the outpouring of God's wrath upon a sinful world (Rev. 18:4, 8). Since the Great Tribulation is demonic persecution (under the direction of the Beast) rather than godly judgment, it should be clear that the seven plagues of God's wrath are not part of the Great Tribulation.
Failure to recognize that the same seven plagues are described twice in the Book of Revelation can lead to confusion about end-time events. Even though the plagues are described from slightly different view points, the two different descriptions for each plague can be compared to see that both descriptions apply to the same event. There is only one set of seven plagues, but they are described twice in the Book of Revelation. (See the chapter on the seven plagues of the Wrath of God for more information.)
Christians are not destined to suffer the Wrath of God (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thes. 5:9; Rev. 18:4). Through faith in Jesus, He has delivered us from the coming wrath (1 Thes. 1:9-10). Therefore, Christians will not suffer the Wrath of God.
The Beast and non-Christians will suffer terribly during the Wrath of God (Rom. 1:18; 2:5-9; Eph 5:3-7; Col. 3:5-6; Rev. 9:3-6; 16:9-11). Even though they refuse to repent, they will be forced to acknowledge that Jesus is the Lord of all (Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11; 11:13; Rom. 14:11; Phil. 2:10-11). Since no one repents during the Wrath of God, it would appear that no one is saved during the Wrath of God (Acts 3:19; 11:18). Like the flood of Noah's days, the Wrath of God is a time of punishment, not a time of correction (Mat. 24:36-39; Gen. 6:5-8, 13, 17; Gen. 7:13-24).
The Wrath of God is a scriptural term referring to a specific period of time when God will punish the Beast and those who worship him (Rev. 14:9-11). This outpouring of God's wrath will take the form of seven plagues (Rev. 8:1-13; 9:1-21; 11:1-19; 15:1-21). The Wrath of God is sometimes called the Day of the Lord (Joel 1:15; 2:1-11; 1 Thes. 5:1-9).
Significance of the Wrath of God:
The Wrath of God is a time of punishment for the Beast and all those who worship him and take his mark during the Great Tribulation (Rev. 14:9-11). The Wrath of God is God's judgment upon sin and sinners (Rom. 1:18; 2:5-9; Eph 5:3-7; Col. 3:5-6).
Source of the Wrath of God:
The Wrath of God comes from God (Rom. 2:5-9; 2 Thes. 1:6-10; Rev. 15:6-7). It is performed by angels under His command (Rev. 8:1-2; 11:17-18; 15:6-8; 16:1).
Length of the Wrath of God:
The precise length of the Wrath of God is not given in the Bible. One of the plagues lasts five months (Rev. 9:5). Therefore the Wrath of God lasts at least five months.
Events Prior to the Wrath of God:
The Great Tribulation occurs before the Wrath of God (also see the Chronological Relationships chapter). Immediately after the Great Tribulation (but before the Wrath of God) certain signs will occur in the sun, moon, and stars (Mat. 24:29; Rev. 6:12-14). Also, Jesus will be seen by the people on earth as He returns to gather His people (Mat. 24:27, 30-21; Rev. 6:15-17).
Events of the Wrath of God:
The primary events associated with the Wrath of God are the seven plagues poured out in judgment upon the earth and its inhabitants (Rev. 8:6-13; 9:1-21; 11:15-19; 15:1; 16:1-21).
During the Wrath of God:
God's judgment and punishment will be poured out as seven plagues upon those who remain on the earth after the Rapture (Rev. 8:1-13; 9:1-21; 11:1-19; 15:1-21). God will be a shelter for His people (Joel 3:9-16).
Christians During the Wrath of God:
Most Christians will be in heaven during the Wrath of God (Rev. 7:9-17; 15:1-4). There will be 144,000 people who are sealed to protect them against the plagues (Rev. 7:1-8; 14:1-5). These will participate in the outpouring of the Wrath of God or possibly will witness against the people of the earth by explaining the reason for the plagues (Rev. 14:1-4). Two witnesses will also testify against the people during the Wrath of God (Rev. 11:3-13). The people of God will not suffer the plagues of the Wrath of God (Rom. 5:9; 1 Thes. 5:9; 1:9-10; Joel 3:9-16; Rev. 7:2-3).
Satan During the Wrath of God:
The Bible does not describe many of Satan's activities during the Wrath of God. Satan (the dragon) will gather the people of the earth at Armageddon to fight against God during the Wrath of God (Rev. 16:13-14).
Beast During the Wrath of God:
The Beast will suffer severe punishment during the Wrath of God (Rev. 16:10-11). The Beast will kill God's two witnesses between the sixth and seventh plagues (Rev. 11:7). The Beast, Satan, and the False Prophet will gather the people together at Armageddon to fight against God (Rev. 16:13-14).
Non-Christians During the Wrath of God:
Non-Christians will suffer punishment during the Wrath of God (Rom. 1:18; 2:5-9; Eph 5:3-7; Col. 3:5-6; Rev. 9:3-6; 16:9-11). They will blaspheme God (Rev. 16:9, 11, 21). They will refuse to repent for their evil (Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9, 11). They will be forced to give God the glory due Him (Rev. 11:13; Rom. 14:11; Phil. 2:10-11).
Events Following the Wrath of God:
Satan will be bound for 1000 years and the Millennium will begin (Rev. 20:1-4).
Scripture references for the Wrath of God:
Mat. 24:36-39; Luke 17:22-30; Rom. 1:18; Rom. 2:5-9; Rom. 5:9; Rom. 14:11; Eph. 5:3-7; Col. 3:5-6; 1 Thes. 1:9-10; 1 Thes. 5:1-9; 2 Thes. 1:6-10; Rev. 6:12-17; Rev. 7:1-17; Rev. 8:1-13; Rev. 9:1-21; Rev. 11:1-19; Rev. 14:7-12, 17-20; Rev. 15:1-21; Rev. 16:1-21; Rev. 18:4, 8; Rev. 19:11-21; Joel 1:15; Joel 2:1-11, 28-32; Joel 3:12-16; Zech. 14:1-15; Isa. 2:10-21; Isa. 13:1-16; Isa. 24:1-23; Isa. 26:20-21; Isa. 63:1-6; Ezek. 7:1-27
We conclude that the order of events is / Tribulation, Great Tribulation Rapture and Wrath of God as we have come out of Great tribulation" But are those that come out at this point at this time the are they the bridal believers or other believers who overcome therefore the tribulation saints.
This however seems to contradict the latter promises to the believers or his bride.
The position of who is his bride and who isn't is relative to his return and coming.
The great Tribulation is not the wrath of God. If so it puts these believers in the period described above and not in the wrath of God. This makes sense as his wrath is reserved for the wicked as explained above.
(Mat 24:30 MKJV) And then the sign of the Son of Man shall appear in the heavens. And then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of the heaven with power and great glory.
(Isa 26:21 MKJV) For behold, Jehovah comes out of His place to punish the people of the earth for their iniquity; the earth also shall reveal her blood, and shall no more cover her dead.
So at this stage does the Great tribulation precede the wrath of God. Does the wrath of God begin at the end of the tribulation.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
WE see that the sun, moon and constellation loose their light before the wrath of God.
The wrath of God begins with his coming.
Joe 3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
Zep 1:15 That day [is] a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of waste ness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
In comparison to the troubles of the tribulation the wrath of god is a whole new and terrifying event. The degrees of judgement increase as time move forward with the total wrath of God being poured out at the end.
However there seems to be a contradiction in that the day of the Lord can not be a 24 hour period because when the sixth seal is broken the great Day of Gods wrath begins Rev 6:17.
After this we have the seventh seal broken which ushers in the trumpet judgements. Most happen quickly however the results would take time for instance in Rev 8:11 the water is poisoned and many men died. This may take a day or a few days I don't know but we do know that after the fifth trumpet those who have the mark of the beast are tormented by the stink of locusts like that of scorpions stings. They are tormented for 5 months.
It must be made clear that troubles are mutual with the period of the tribulation weather they are consequences, judgements or Gods wrath.
What is clear that there are people kept away, delivered , saved, raptured from this time and there are those who are not but are either killed or delivered at the end when The Lord comes with his wrath at the end.
Associated verses with this preservation.
(Rev 3:10 KJV) Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the entire world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Obviously a period of time of temptation. A time of Satins influence full on. I would say while he is incarnate on earth.. but before the wrath of God
(Job 5:19) "In the 6th day I will preserve thee and the 7th I will deliver you."
(Luke 21:36) "Be always on watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is coming upon the world that you will be able to stand before the son of man."
(Isa 26:20 KJV) Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be over past.
(Dan 12:1 MKJV) And at that time Michael shall stand up, the great ruler who stands for the sons of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation; until that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
(Mat 25:10 MKJV) And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came. And they who were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut.
(Jer 30:7 KJV) Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
(Exo 12:22 MKJV) And you shall take a bunch of hyssop and dip in the blood in the bowl, and strike the lintel and the doorposts with the blood in the bowl. And none of you shall go out of the door of his house until the morning
Is this saying that the judgements of Egypt are similar to The wrath of God at the End. If so as promised we are kept away from that by the blood of Christ weather here or in heaven.
(Gen 7:16 MKJV) And they that entered, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him. And Jehovah shut him in.
We conclude that the order of events is Rapture / Tribulation, Great Tribulation and Wrath of God as we have come out of Great tribulation" Is it us or the tribulation saints
But then what do we do with this verse:
(Rev 7:9 KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
These people come out of the Great Tribulation confirmed by the elders asking.
(Rev 7:14 MKJV) And I said to him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are the ones who came out of the great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb.
If so the lord must come twice. Once for his bride and once for the tribulation saints and to bring the wrath of God. If the multitude come out of the great tribulation there must be no more great tribulation left as he brings the wrath of God at that time. A question does he bring the wrath of God when he returns?
The answer seems to be no but yes when he comes and these appear to be two events. This is because he returns for his bride but comes at the time of his wrath.
They were kept safe.
Isa 49:10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
The great tribulation in context here is referring to the end times.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (Therefore taken out before his wrath).
It is clear here that we are not here for the wrath of God.
So the question is what is the trouble / indignation / Jacobs trouble /out of the great tribulation that we are to be kept away from??
The trouble spoken about can not be the wrath of God but the wrath of Satan or the tribulation time.
Are the troubles equal to the judgements. Certainly trouble for the unrepentant but not for the believer as they will not be here.
Contextually the times of trouble referred to are different to the wrath of God yet will also be part of it.
Psa 27:5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.
Similar parallel to the being kept in the ark and stayed on the rock of Christ.
Psa 32:7 Thou [art] my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
Psa 50:15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me.
Pro 11:8 The righteous are delivered out of trouble, and the wicked cometh in his stead.
This must be the general status unless God allows the righteous to go through Trouble and it appears he does to some degree in the tribulation and possibly great tribulation. If so these verses become contradictory.
Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
There appears only two scenarios that I can see.
1: The lord returns and removes the believers before he comes to bring his wrath. This must occur during the great tribulation period or at the very end.
Yet there is a time period of the judgements for those on earth.
2: The lord returns and removes the bride then brings his wrath after the great tribulation.
These would then leave the multitude (Rev 7 : 9MKJV) to be the ones saved after the rapture.
Obviously we need to relate the similarities and differences in both returns.
How he returns and what happens when he returns could be two different episodes.
They are because he returns for his bride but comes to bring his wrath.
These have come out of Great tribulation
Rev 9:4 MKJV) And they were commanded not to hurt the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads.
What is the tribulation.
It is the time of trouble. This period regarded as the last week of the seventieth week described in Denial.
There appears to be a contradiction in regards to the believers kept out of trouble. It says we will suffer tribulation. The problem lies in the meaning of the depiction of the words trouble and tribulation.
Within the context they mean different periods, times and events.
There are troubles and then there is The Trouble.
There is tribulation and then there is The Tribulation.
There is trouble and tribulations that Christians can Go through normatively speaking then there is The Trouble and The Tribulation period. The time or trouble. The time of tribulation and great tribulation.
The later is a specific period of time with a specific purpose.
In regards to the mark of the beast. Is our allegiance determined by being involved with the system economically. Or will it ultimately come to a place where the beast who heads up an economic system automatically mean allegiance to the beast by anyone participating in it/. Will must come to some part that the recognition of the mark affiliates partnership with him.. How that will be we will see. E.g. it will if he heads up this system or requires allegiance to him to be in the system.
Question. Will those who change and end up worshiping the true God in ReV .... after the resurrection of the two witnesses, have the mark of the beast on them. If so they choose possible martyrdom. Again it is some or a number of people who still yet do not have the mark. Those who have taken it are damned. Does the mark of the beast exist then? Is this in the period of Gods wrath.? Possibly and likely not. The mark of the beast can not be a compulsory item on everybody.
WE do know that once received that's it for those who take it. They are doomed. The more and more I see it this mark of the beast is heading to the end of the tribulation period
The clearest example that puts the return and coming of the lord and the removal of believers is to understand the Barley, wheat and grape harvests to understand the tribulation period.
The Barely Harvest.
The Barley harvests is the first harvest.
It is the first fruits of harvest time.
The first bit is Jesus the rest is the bride.
Barley thrown in air in evening into night when winds pick up after winnowing.
Barely is soft requiring soft refining like rolling and wind typical of the holy spirit.
Harvest celebrated by an all attendance feast where unleavened bread is eaten.
Begins with a trumpet blast.
Levin bread represents sin or false doctrine.
I believe the removal of these believers is the bride and are typified by the
Barely harvest and Barley. Due to the nature and celebration of this harvest, it has the hallmarks associated with aspects of the rapture or harpezo of the believers when we are gathered together.
It is possible because the removal of husks happens when the wind picks up during the late evening that the bride may have to endure some tribulation. The other possibility is that the night simply is a metaphor for tribulation rather than the tribulation period. The night is a metaphor for the tribulation period mainly understood but could be used this way in an aspect of degree of refinement.
In conclusion barely represents faithful Holy Spirit taught and changed lives.
Regarded as faithful to which the rapture is a blessing.
This would make sense as a loving God would provide an exception for those who are obedient to him. What would be the point of putting his beloved through literally hell on earth which to me reeks of a sadistically aspect of character. God is not this.
Unfortunately people do go through persecution and terrible things happen but this contextually is different to that being explained above.
The Wheat Harvests.
The wheat harvest comes after the barely harvest.
The wheat is a lot harder than barely. It's refining requires something much more substantial. It goes through a mechanism called a tribulim.
During this time leavened bread is eaten. Leaven representing sin.
The harvest feast is attended by specific people and not everyone.
Conclusion: The wheat is represented by stubborn, sinful' carnal Christians who are not faithful to the lord. These could well be represented by the tribulation saints. They require a severe aspect of testing or refinement and may well miss out on the blessing prescribed to those who are faithful.
The Harvests of Grapes.
This is the final harvest of the season.
These are cut off with a small sickle.
Placed in the wine press. Crushed and the juice flows.
Conclusion: The grapes are to do with the wicked and are sympolized by this.
There is no refinement but being crushed to release the juice.
Verses associated with these concepts are:
Rev 14: 16 – 20
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle,
And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. (Rev 14:18 KJV)
Rev 14:18 KJV
(18) And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
(Rev 14:19 KJV)
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.
(Rev 14:20 KJV)
It is interesting how the New age people, spiritists etc all are aware of the scenario of Space craft waiting to take people away for the purpose of cleaning. Some describe the disappearances similar to Thessalonians. This is also proof of pretrib or part trib rapture acceptances. It only adds to the rapture and snatching away concepts I have put forward in my e-book.
The mystery of lightening.
"As the lightening comes from the east to the West so shall the coming of the son of man come."
To the ancients lightening coming from the East was a good thing but lightening to the West was a bad thing. So Christ comes for his people and what follows is bad, trouble, the tribulation.
The way lightening behaves is exactly the way the Lord returns for his bride.
Check out how ions behave and the return stroke similar to the return of the lord. See the "Events around the Rapture" by Perry Stone
Recently a Jewish boy died for 15minutes on the last tetrad red moon. He was taken to heaven and what he saw is very sobering. What he saw was relative to Israel and the middle east.
IN QUICK SUMMARY:
Nations going into battle against Isis.
Merging in the middle east.
Nuclear Warfare against Isis.
Nations end up fighting each other.
Obama in league with other nations attack Israel.
Christ comes .
Mount of Olive peels in two.
Gog is defeated my The Lord.
To see this in detail look on the web.
Simply "Jewish boy Death Red moon."
Something happens in the Middle East that triggers a world war. What the boy saw and what she saw I believe is the same thing.
What he sees combines with the prophecy from the 90 year old Norwegian woman in my previous chapters in the ebook. She also can be found on the "web" The removal of the Bride could happen in the time of when the nations together are attacking Isis and our removal could just preceding the nations tuning on each other. This makes perfect sense. As at that time millions end up dying.
See her vision of the forth wave of events.
: when evil reaches a point
; Bride removed
: 3rd World War.
The truce achieved probably by Obama or who ever, may very well be the peace agreement described in Denial by the man of perdition.
One can see how when a world is left to it's own devices the acts of terrorism only becomes normative. Remove that which is Godly and one would see a world spiralling into evil. A whole level of insensitivity, chaos, hardness , ushers in a time of hell on earth.
In all this "pray always that we will be ready for his return which could be sooner than we thing":